Discuss Daniel 12 Page 6

Hello Kuhnemd,

It seems like you labeled people who believe the Bible as being in one of these groups, which could be perceived as an disrespectful attack. You wrote "The concept of "soul sleep" is not biblical. ", but sleep while awaiting Jesus's return and judgment is Biblical if that's what the Bible says. And this is what the Bible says:

Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

The scripture you quoted about sleep and awaiting judgment supports it, and the scripture you used to support your belief of going immediately to heaven doesn't actually support it. You then misquoted Paul 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 when he said he would "rather" be in heaven than on Earth. Philippians 1:23 says he has a "desire" to depart, not that 100% of all people go immediately to be with the Lord. Thought I would explain that for the benefit of others who may be viewing this so they are not mislead. This is not a salvation issue, but it's hard to see scripture being distorted and not mention it. Normal Bible readers who aren't in any of the groups you mention can believe what God's Word says about sleep. If it says it, and it does, then I believe it. I do not believe man's different ideas about the subject, only God's. God bless.

Starting with: Numbers 14:34,35,36,37,38 then, Ezekiel 4:6,

Daniel 9:2, searching the prophetic timelines,

Other years mysteries: Isaiah 61:2, Isaiah 63:4, Jeremiah 11:23, Jeremiah 17:8, Jeremiah 23:12, Jeremiah 48:44, Jeremiah 51:46, Ezekiel 46:17, Luke 4:19, Luke 13:8, Revelation 9:15, Daniel 11:6,

Sometimes in prophetic dreams things symbolized days & years,

additional amounts of time described at "times" Daniel 4:23,25,32, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 8:14,17,19,26

Weeks; Daniel 9:24-27, Daniel 12:1,9,

Days: Daniel 12:11,12,13, 2Peter 3:7-13,

Also a Day is like a thousand years unto The LORD: 2Peter 3:8, Psalms 90:4,

* Daniel 2:20-22, James 1:5,

Hopefully these are helpful to your study

Hey Benjamin,

I agree with S Spencer and Noel, for those of us who have heard of Jesus and are called and have accepted Jesus as our savior the answer would be no.

I would like to give my understanding; God is a loving God Zephaniah 3:17 God will help and strengthen us Isaiah 41:10 God is just and upright Deuteronomy 32:4 and God is love and merciful Ephesians 2:4.

There are millions of people who lived and died before Jesus first came, and millions who have lived and died since who have never heard who Jesus is and what He offers. What happens to them? Everyone who is alive today and all who have lived in the past has the knowledge of good and evil thanks to the first Adam.

The white throne judgment many teach is only for the lost and unrighteous, my understanding is different. In Revelation 20:11-15 all the rest of the dead is judged, small and great and the books were open, and they were judged from the things written in the books, according to their works. In verse 15 it says this, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire". Along with other scriptures, my understanding is there were some names in the book of life.

God only knows, some scripture gives a clue, People under the law being judged by the law and those who do by nature the things contained in the law not under the law (judged from the things written in the books) Romans 2:12-15, and if the white throne judgment is for lost only, how do we understand these verses, Daniel 12:2 Matthew 25:32-46 John 5:28-29 Acts 24:14-15.

God bless,

RLW

Alex,

Daniel 12:1 is talking about the day of the Lord, the 6th trumpet strike, the fall of Babylon, the abomination of desolation, the great tribulation. The world will turn into a curse.

Ezekiel 38 talks of two clouds to cover the land. Ezekiel 21:19-20 talks about attacking 2 nations from one land. These two lands represent America and Israel, both houses of Israel, Gods people.

Ezekiel 21 has several depictions of Israel, "my people" vs 12 as being the subject of the slaughter.

The attack is against America, Israel and every nation allied with America. Isaiah 24:20 states the earth will be hit so hard that it will be knocked of its axis, the sun and moon will refuse to shine 1/3rd the day as a result.

Who will stop Russia besides nobody, Rev 13:3; they have God on their side. Isaiah 13:1-6, they come from a far country, "even the Lord with them". Joel 2:11, the Lord uttered His voice before "His army". God is preparing the sixth trumpet army (Russia) to annihilate the fifth trumpet army (US) to dust, Revelation 9.

Nothing like reading about it in real time, just as the little horn Daniel 7:8 starts to make his move.

Day of the Lord: Isaiah 13, Isaiah 21:1-9, Isaiah 24, Isaiah 47, Ezekiel 21:1-24, Ezekiel 38:1-17, Jeremiah 50 & 51, Joel 2:1-11, Revelation 18 & Luke 21:20-24 (Israel's fall in same hour).

Hello Bruce, Nice to meet you.

I looked up Beth Togarmah on several maps. It seems that the people of Togarmah originally settled in southern turkey above Syria. then later maps show Togarmah in northern Turkey just south of the Black Sea. And other maps show Togarmah between the Black and Caspian Seas in the Caucasus Mountain area. So, in these modern times, perhaps the people of Togarmah are still in the Caucasus area or maybe they migrated farther north, as Ezekiel 38 seems to imply.

I go on Google and type in:

Ancient maps of Israel, and then type the name of places you are trying to locate.

If it's not in Israel, type Palestine.

Who or where is Beth Togarmah where is this place referring to in Eze 38 : 6.

Dear Richard,

I'd like to offer an alternative viewpoint to the absent with body present with Lord phrase.

First, it doesn't say that in the Bible. That phrase is actually from 2 Corinthians 5:8 where Paul said he would "rather" be absent from the body, and present with the Lord. He didn't say in 100% of all cases when people die that 100% of the time they will be "immediately" with the Lord, regardless. If it was the second phrase it would be clear what it means, but all it means is Paul stating his preference. It certainly doesn't mean Hitler and other mass murderers are with the Lord right now, simply because of this one verse.

Second, people often quote the verse about the man on the cross that Jesus said would be in "paradise" on that day as support. But Jesus didn't say 100% of all people, from this moment onward will 100% go to heaven, and zero people going to hell. And the word paradise is not necessarily the same as heaven. Some believe this is a waiting area for the dead.

Lastly, there are many more Bible verses indicating that the dead are 'sleeping' and are awaiting the Lord to meet in the air and then face judgment. It says all will be judged, not just some. So, believing people go immediately to heaven without waiting on the Lord, and skipping judgment doesn't align with the other scriptures.

Matthew 12:36, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Revelation 20:11-15 - People are all judged on the same day. Lots of people seen in the same place.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 says the dead will rise and those living will meet the Lord in the air. Would it make sense for someone to go heaven, then back to earth to rise up, then back again to heaven?

When people die they 'sleep' awaiting the Lord's return as it indicates in Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Hey Jeff,

It will be hard to find, the closest you will get is a parable in Luke 16. If you read the chapter and the context it is against the love of money and wealth. When Jesus first came the Greek influence was widespread many were Hellenized.

When our spirit leaves our body and goes to intermediate heaven does not come from scripture, it comes from Plato. His definition of death is the separation of the soul from the body. Hades the Underworld where the dead went, a subterranean region, the world of the dead where all souls passed after their time on earth, Elysium was paradise.

If you look for scripture you will find sleep in the earth until the resurrection, Job 7:21 Job 14:12-14 Job 17:13-16 Psalm 89:48 Psalm 115:17 Daniel 12:2 Ecclesiastes 9:10

God bless,

RLW

Please see these references: Mark 9:1-7, Matthew 17:2, Matthew 28:3, Luke 9:29, Revelation 19:11-16, Revelation 1:14, Mark 16:5, John 20:12, Acts 1:10, Ecclesiastes 9:8, Revelation 3:4,5, Revelation 7:9-17, Revelation 20:11, Isaiah 1:18, Revelation 6:2,11, Revelation 9:18, Daniel 11:35, Revelation 4:4, Daniel 7:9, Revelation 2:17, Daniel 12:10,

John 4:35,

But Also : Genesis 40:16-23, Joel 1:7, Leviticus 13, Revelation 15:6,

Hopefully these are helpful.

Yes, Ronald

Daniel 12:3 says

(NIV)

Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever.

So, we will shine in eternity. I think all of heaven will shine with the God's holy light

Revelations 21:22-23

Yet I think we will be able to discern Jesu' countenance and that of others

In this life here, such light would be blinding, but in our new incorruptible bodies, our eyes will not be bothered by the light of holiness we will experience forever in heaven.

Jesus is both the light of the world and the light of heaven.

Obviously light is associated with holiness, so when Jesus said to let our light shine in this life, He is referring to our godly lifestyle that causes others to glorify God.

Thanks for reminding me about these verses.

Hey Gigi,

If we do like the little song; This little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine, it will shine then, some brighter than others but none as bright as our Savior Jesus Christ whose light shines through us.

Daniel 12:2-3 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Keep the light on and keep it shining.

God bless,

RLW

Hey Rick,

Death is something we all will face; many believe our body dies and our soul lives on. Is our soul immortal? Can we take 2 Corinthians 5:8 when we die our soul leaves our body and we are present with the Lord? Some define death as a separation of the soul from the body. Does that come from scripture? I have not found that in scripture.

It comes from Greek philosophy of Plato. He wrote the body is a prison for the soul and viewed death as the means of freedom for the soul. The philosophy of death started blending in the church in the second century and those good souls go to heaven and the bad goes to hell and more. Many see the parable in Luke 16:19-31 as fitting this. If you read the chapter Jesus is talking about the unrighteous love mammon and neglect the true riches.

My understanding from scripture every part of us is mortal and when we die, we sleep in the dust, Job 14:12-14, Job 17:13-16, Ecclesiastes 9:5-10 until resurrection. When this mortal puts on immortality 1 Corinthians 15:52-58, and we will be absent from this flesh body. Then those that are Christs will be judged and receive our rewards. Matthew 16:27, Revelation 22:12 that is our hope, 1 Thessalonians 2:19

We will sleep in the dust, Daniel 12:2, 1Theselonians 4:14 and this is not from heaven, it is from around the world to meet Jesus in the air coming down to Israel the start the 1000 years at His coming. Matthew 24:31 Zechariah 14:4.

This is my understanding of scripture.

God bless,

RLW

Genesis 1:14 , Psalms 104:19,

Exodus 23:14, Nehemiah 9:6-38,

1 Thessalonians 5:1-23, Act 1:7-11, Daniel 2:20-22,

Psalms 16:7, Matthew 21:31-41, Daniel 7:23-27, 2 Timothy 3:1-7, Isaiah 33:6, Jeremiah 8:7, Ezekiel 12:27, Daniel 7:2-27, Daniel 9:2-27, Daniel 11:2-45 -continues- Daniel 12:1-4, Luke 21:5-36, Revelation, the whole book,

Psalms 106:3, Psalms 31:15,

Deuteronomy 18:10, Deuteronomy 18:14, 2 Kings 21:6,

1 Chronicles 12:32, Esther 1:14,

Psalms 9:9, Psalms 62:8,

Matthew 16:2-3,

Hopefully these are helpful in your study.

Grace,

If I may ask a few questions just on part one? Forgive me if I misunderstand the post. What scripture says the rest of the dead are unjust? You listed Daniel 12:2 and we also have John 5:28-29, Matthew 25:31-46, Acts 24:15, do we just overlook these? In the white throne judgement are not the books opened. "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire". Revelation 20:11-15. In this judgement of all nations there will be those that are told well done my faithful servant and those unworthy their reward, the lake of fire. This is my understanding.

God bless,

RLW

dear mishael, i only read the King James Bible!

thank you for your reply to my message!!!

May the Lord Jesus bless you at this Christmas season and all

through your life!!

On that great day of the Lord's second coming , we will see who will triumph

over this world and Eden , we will live in forever!!!!

He who is faithful and true said so in His word!!!!!

Thank you again!!!

You might enjoy a website called ; GEVTE

:)

In verse 11 states there will be 1290 days then in verse 12 states 1335 days , so 1335 days from 1290 days equals 45 extra days! For what are the extra 45 days for?? Repenting of our sins to the Lord Jesus? Coming to the full knowledge in heart mind and soul that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh!We as believers know who He is!! Giving sinners extra time of this evil generation to come to the true reality? Jesus Christ wants all men to repent to Him!! Praise and Glory to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords!!!!! Amen!

Dgjot, to add, somethings mentioned : in Daniel 10:7-13,21, -continues - Daniel 11:1 , Daniel 12:1, Zechariah 3:1-3, speaks also about rebuke, more on Michael- Revelations 12:7,

English Sacha. Is that what you have gleaned from what I addressed to Earl? You've made some assumptions that clearly are emotive rather than what I had written or is revealed in the Bible. We're discussing the fact of God's Judgement to all who are not saved through Jesus Christ.

How God decides who are worthy of judgement (whether some primitive soul or those with mental shortcomings, etc), is God's matter, not mine nor yours. If you believe this God of Love is incapable of judging sinners in such a manner, then you would need to consider the operation of God throughout Scriptures - i.e. He is indeed a God of Love but also a God of Justice. We can often be conditioned by the world & what we perceive to be right, to think of such a justice system as normal, as true. Whereas God's Justice always demands the correct penalty - and unfortunately, simply losing one's life in death (which happens to us all) is just one part of that justice. The wages of sin might indeed be death, but the wages for the rejection of God & His offer of salvation are far greater ( Daniel 12:1,2; Matthew 18:7-9; Matthew 25:31-46; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9; Jude 1:6,7; Revelation 14:9-11; Revelation 20:10-15). And sister GiGi has also given a very apt response to you.

Earl,

Sorry, it took me a while to study your posts. Scripture is clear; the lake of fire is real and it was prepared for Satan and his angels, Matthew 25:41. Those whose name is not in the book of life will be cast into this lake of fire, the second death, this is the death the saints will be spared. According to scripture we all will be judged and our reward will be given, good or bad according to our works Revelation 22:12. Each of us will have different rewards, some lights will be brighter than others, Daniel 12:2-3 and whether in the lake of fire, the punishments may be also judged accordingly.

My understanding is we do not get a second chance for salvation after this life in this flesh, Hebrews 9:27. We have this, there are evil and good people that live and have lived and those who did not have a chance to hear of the word of God, this may show how they will be judged at the white throne judgment, Romans 2:12-15 (this is my understanding of this), but those who have heard and rejected it, Katy bar the door.

I must humbly disagree, I am not in the lake of fire, we will be judged with fire, 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. The Bible has symbolic wording but represents real things, people, kingdoms, etc. I am sorry I can't follow interpreting the scriptures by allegorizing all, I feel we turn all scripture into parables.

RLW

Amen and Amen, Brother Alex:

Daniel 12:10

Sister Sacha, may CHRIST IN US grace us with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time: (prophecy) the coming ministry of Christ, in the FLESH for forty two months; afterwards the ministry of CHRIST THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT; which has been going on now for two thousand years.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael: Michael is the MESSENGER (angel) of GOD; CHRIST is the MESSENGER (angel) of GOD. Michael is Christ and Christ is Michael.

Malachi 2:7 For the priest's (Christ is our high priest) lips shall keep knowledge, and they (priest's lips) shall seek the law at his mouth (Christ mouth): for he (Christ) is the MESSENGER (angel) of the Lord.

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel (messenger of the Lord).....

Revelation 12:7 ....Michael (CHRIST, messenger of the Lord) and his angels (ministering Spirits, messengers)......

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael (Christ) stand up, the great prince (Christ) which standeth for the children of thy (God's) people: and there shall be a time of trouble (has been going on now for two thousand years), such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time (when you can enter into the kingdom of God) thy people shall be delivered (saved from death and the grave), every one (chosen to be a priest) that shall be written (IN CHRIST) in the book (IN the WORD, IN CHRIST).

There is TWO RESURRECTIONS; the resurrection of the saints, both those of the old testament (at Christ resurrection) and those that are born again (that share in Christ resurrection, so they never see death).

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth (all those that died before Christ resurrection and those not chosen in the AGE of grace) shall awake, some to (age of the ages) life (those in the FIRST RESURRECTION), and some to shame and (age of the ages) contempt (SECOND RESURRECTION).

You can NEVER understand the prophecies without understanding there are TWO RESURRECTIONS.

Jode & everyone I'm sorry to intrude in your discussion earlier, with world view & opinion hopefully it wasn't unwanted. To add to the Biblical discussion I pretty much agree with most answers given. I also do not believe it to be the 'Mark' however through wisdom of this time & everything we are witnessing & experiencing we are all much more wise to see how in the future 'the beast' may try to play out that 'Mark'.

Matthew 24:24, Matthew 24:1-51, Daniel 9:21-27

I also do not believe Matthew 24:15 has yet happened, but we're told to be watchful

Luke 12:1-59, Daniel 11:24-45, note Daniel 11:35, Daniel 12:1-13, Ezekiel 39:11-29,

* 2 Thessalonians 2:1-17 the 'great falling away' hasn't happened yet either

Hopefully these are helpful

DALE E STAHLBERG,

From the first Adam, all have sinned Romans 5:12. Even without the law we have sinned, there are people in this world that do much evil and there are people in this world that do much good and neither have never seen a bible or heard of Jesus. From the first Adam, not only death was passed, every person is born with the knowledge of good and evil, it is written in our conscience. With or without the knowledge of the law, one may choose to either do evil or do good.

We see in Romans 2:12-15, read the entire chapter. Jesus first came almost 2000 years ago, the Messiah for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then by the grace of God, the gospel of Jesus was given to all the other nations. Millions of people lived and died before He first came, are they doomed to eternal death? Millions since have never heard of Him, are they doomed?

What we should contemplate, will we that have heard the gospel of Jesus be held to a higher standard of judgment? We see when Jesus sent the disciples out to tell people the kingdom of heaven is at hand, what it would be like if they rejected it. Matthew 10:14-15.

Many see the great white throne judgment is only for the lost, but in my understanding, scripture does not support that. We have Daniel 12:2 John 5:28-29 Matthew 25:31-46, and more, and the parables. After the one thousand years, Revelation 20:11-15. All the rest of the dead small and great, raised from the dead, they will be judged out of the books and one of these books is the book of life, and whoever was not found in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. Would the book of life be needed if all were lost? God is a just God and we can trust in His word.

This is my understanding, may others have another view.

God bless,

RLW

After the Apostle John was caught up in Heaven in the Spirit the Angel told him eat this little book and in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey and in your belly it will be bitter John the Apostle was going to write down and the Lord said do it not for you must prophesy before many people and tongues he died on Patmos // my question is when do you think John the Apostle will prophesied what was in the little book, not yet happened I know its not the two witnesses that that prophesied during the last part of tribulation which I believe is Moses and Elijah. thank you very much

Have you considered: Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 ?

While a comforting thought, that repeated phrase doesn't appear that way in the Bible. Paul didn't say that 100% of the time, when 100% of all people die, that instantly you are absent from the body and 100% of the time immediately with the Lord. Paul said he would 'rather' be present with the Lord. That doesn't mean everyone goes to be with the Lord and that doesn't mean that everyone is absent from their body upon death and won't wait for Jesus to return, and won't face any judgment. Matthew 12:36, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Revelation 20:11-15 - People are all judged on the same day. God bless...

Basic Distinctions between Prophecy and the Mystery (C.R. Stam) - continued:

8) Prophecy mainly concerns nations as such ( Isaiah 2:4; Ezekiel 37:21-22)

Rightly Divided ( 2 Timothy 2:15) From "Things That DIFFER!":

8) The Mystery Concerns individuals ( Romans 10:12-13; 2 Corinthians 5:14-17)

9) Prophecy concerns blessings, both material and spiritual, on earth ( Isaiah 2:3-4; Isaiah 11:1-9; etc.)

RDf

9) The Mystery Concerns "all spiritual blessings in The Heavenlies" ( Ephesians 1:3; Colossians 3:1-3)

10) Prophecy concerns Christ's Coming to the earth ( Isaiah 59:20; Zechariah 14:4)

RDf

10) The Mystery Explains Christ's absence from the earth ( Ephesians 1:20-24; Colossians 3:1-3)

11) In prophecy, salvation by Grace through faith alone is not contemplated ( Matthew 28:19-20; Matthew 23:1-3; Luke 7:29-30; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; James 2:17)

RDf

11) Salvation "By GRACE Through faith" Alone lies at The Very Heart Of The Mystery! ( Romans 3:21-26; Romans 4:5; Ephesians 2:8-9)

12) The proclamation of the prophetic program committed particularly to the twelve ( Matthew 10:5-7; Acts 1:6-8; Acts 3:19-26)

RDf

12) The proclamation of The Mystery program committed particularly to Paul ( Ephesians 3:1-3; Ephesians 3:8-9; Colossians 1:24-27)

13) The prophetic program revealed through many of God's servants Luke 1:70; 2 Peter 1:21)

RDf

13) The Mystery revealed through one man: Paul! ( Galatians 1:1; Galatians 1:11-12; Galatians 2:2; Galatians 2:7; Galatians 2:9; Ephesians 3:2-3)

14) Old Testament writers frequently did not understand the prophecies made through them ( Daniel 12:8-10; 1 Peter 1:10-12)

RDf

14) Paul Both understood And longed that others might understand The Mystery revealed through him ( Ephesians 1:15-23; Ephesians 3:14-21; Colossians 1:9-10; Colossians 2:1-3)

{borrowed from "Things That Differ" by C.R. Stam}

Revelation gets a little easier to read with a STUDY BIBLE.

The kind that have CENTER OF EACH PAGE, Reference Columns. There are tiny abc's Within the scriptures on each page; that match to the ones in the center reference column.

They point us forward or backward to other relevant scriptures or prophesies (fulfilled or unfulfilled)

I don't care for the study Bibles that use the bottom of the page, or the sides.

Revelation is using many references to other scriptures. A serious student needs one of these.

I have to have many spiral notebooks to guide me in these referenced scriptures. I title it with what is happening in the Revelation scriptures.

That is how I discovered that God had turned the earth upside down. Which may be the way Genesis began. That's one of those studies that I choose to leave in Gods hands.

If He had wanted us to know what happened 2 Billion years ago; He would have included a book and chapters for it in the Bible. OR.maybe He was waiting on the children in the Book of Daniel; a generation that would be alive during "the Time of the End". Daniel 12:9-10 Wise children.

Daniel 1:17

Children who walk with the Holy Spirit. Able to despise all for to be the Lords servants. You can't love this world that will pass away. Love the God who is going to destroy this world and then restore it. Back to what it was when Adam was put in it.

Note that Paul didn't say that 100% of the time, when 100% of all people die, that instantly you are absent from the body and 100% of the time immediately with the Lord. Paul just said he would 'rather' be present with the Lord. I think some are reading things into that that aren't there and it seems contrary to other scripture about us all facing judgment. No one gets to skip judgment. Matthew 12:36, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Revelation 20:11-15 - People are all judged on the same day. Lots of people seen in the same place.

I doubt mass murderers like Hitler went to the Lord for example. I believe he is waiting to face judgment like everyone else.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 says the dead will rise and those living will meet the Lord in the air. Would it make sense for someone to go heaven, then back to earth to rise up, then back again to heaven?

Also, when people die they 'sleep' as it says in. So, they are still with their bodies. If cremated, I still believe souls are just sleeping somewhere awaiting Jesus's return, then the day of judgment that says everyone must face. It doesn't say anyone gets to skip judgment day. God bless.

Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18