Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 307

Hello Mother Mac,

Thanks for adding these Scriptures to our conversation. May you be very blessed today in your walk with our Lord and Savior.

More about David's cunning at getting what he wants by manipulation , in 2nd Samuel ch 17 v 25 , Absalom makes his own biological cousin , Amasa ,captain of the host , once Absalom's rebellion is quashed and David is back as the King , he demotes Joab and makes Amasa his nephew captain of his host . Again I'm guessing that David would have known how Joab would react to this and do his dirty work for him . It wouldn't look good for David to kill his own nephew so he enrages Joab , in the best way he knows how and sits back knowing what Joab will do about that . In 1st Kings Ch 2 v 1-9 , David instructs Solomon to kill all those people who he himself would have liked to have killed but it wasn't expedient for him to have done so . Joab is David's puppet , it started with Uriah and David believes he can manipulate Joab any way he wants to and for a very long time Joab is faithful .

David was a man , a man of war and passion . Clever , cunning and manipulative . A true servant of God , full of love and zeal for God and a determination to serve God to the best of his faith and privilege and responsibilities . For me , he had the edge over Solomon because he only married one strange wife , an Egyptian lady and I'm guessing this was a political marriage and although he had many wives he didn't allow them to turn his heart away from God . The Kingdom of Israel under Solomon may be a foreshadow of the Kingdom to come but it is marred by Solomon allowing himself to be led astray . In his writings he often blames women for the downfall of men but his own lust and weakness is to blame and I'm sure he eventually recognised this , judging by his heartfelt repentance in Ecclesiastes .

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter : Fear God and keep His commandments : for this is the whole duty of man . I find David's life fascinating , he's so very human and he loves God so very much .

Yes ! That a great verse . I'm assuming that 3 different scribes penned the books of Samuel , the books of Kings and the books of Chronicles . Each of them may have brought their own political and social biases with them , which is only human .

Whoever penned that verse was ignoring David's failure to punish his own son , who raped David's own daughter , according to God's laws .

One glaring inconsistency concerns what happened to Saul's body and how David reacted to what happened , depending on which book you are reading . In 1st Samuel chapter 31 verses 11-13 we read what the valiant men of Jabesh-Gilead did . In 2nd Samuel chapter 2 verses 5-7 we get David's favourable response to their actions .

Let's jump on to 2nd Samuel chapter 21 , a very interesting chapter all round but let's go straight to verse 12 , where it seems a different attitude prevails .

About chapter 21. It is another example of how David manipulates the situation in order to circumvent the promise that he made to Saul in 1st Samuel chapter 24 verses 21+22 . In 2nd Samuel ch 2 v 8 we discover that Abner is Saul's biological cousin and Ch 2 and 3 give us an account of what went on between Joab and Abner (Saul's cousin ) . It seems to me that Joab is right in his estimation of Abner's character and motives but David will have none of it , he treats Abner as a friend , in my opinion he knows full well how Joab will react and behave in this situation , in fact he's counting on Joab to do what he knows he can't do because of his promise to Saul . My theory can be backed up by David's behaviour in 2nd Samuel ch 21 v 1-11. He appears to condone human sacrifice as he arranges the murders of Saul's two sons and five grandsons on the pretext of appeasing the Gibeonites , who aren't even of Israel . Just what David wanted to do but could not because of his oath . Mephibosheth is the last son of Saul and he's a cripple , David keeps a close eye on him and his only son Micha who is mentioned only once .

1 Co.8:3 "Know nothing"

"And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know."

These know nothings come of two stripes. One who knows nothing wants to know wisdom that Jesus signifies. I belong to it so I follow the signposts Jesus Christ has set up. I don't therefore remove ancient landmarks the words have set up. My faith with works therefore as I have every day tried to live by. For eighty one years of physical life what life promised is everlasting to everlasting. That ought to make me minister here and now as being called by God in his Son.

Second sort of know nothings call their ignorance and call it hermeneutics and explain it according to reason of men and their doctrine. "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth,"(2 Ti.3:7-10) St Paul then goes on to speak of his doctrine which is of Paul but abiding in Christ he spoke as oracle of God. "But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was./But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, long suffering, charity, patience."

Finally, "If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."(1 Pe.4:11)

"Seek to know as you ought to know."

Yes Jaz.

King David was a Interesting Character with a Interesting relationship with God.

1 Kings 15"5 us an example. "Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

He cried out to the Lord as we see in his Psalms.

God bless you.

God through the pens of his prophets declared that he would make the whole earth desolate, left as a cottage in the wilderness.

He would destroy sinful man from the face of the earth, he would CUT OFF their name forever, and renew the face of the earth with a NEW CREATION, a kingdom of Priest, after the image of their creator and high priest JESUS CHRIST, and give them a NEW NAME, his name.

Mark 10:8 And they twain shall be ONE FLESH: so they are NO MORE twain, but ONE FLESH.

Christ came ONCE to fulfill the WORDS of his Father.

ALL was fulfill at the cross of Christ and HIS RESURRECTION.

He has declared all this in his word.

The question is:

Do you AGREE with his WORD, or REBEL against his WORD?

God Bless YOU

Amen Jesse!

Paul makes it clear in Romans 10:8-10. "But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

There mustbe a response! You must receive and receiving a gift is not a act of works!

This doesn't add anything to the foundation already laid!

Once we recieve that precious gift then we are able to build on that foundation.

The Holyspirit takes action! Our actions exhibits our faith. It confirms a connection with our Lord.

It's amazing we're called God's elect by most, and they agree that is a work of God that can't be reversed. ( Well some of us agree to that)

But yet Israel is called God's elect but they would say Israel blew it.

While I'm on the subject of Israel look at Matt. 23:37

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, AND YE WOULD NOT!

(And they would not!)

There was a response needed to be made after the fulfillment of all those prophecies concerning their Messiah.

However, Thank God Paul lays their future out for us in Romans along with many references of their future restoration.

God bless.

Comment to All__

on infants and children

MotherMac

To All:

I am unable to discuss faith and salvation in depth as you in this group so fluently express yourselves.

When I find myself unsure about a subject or a religious issue, like the one on salvation for infants and children now being discussed,there are two scriptures I rely on to help me

move pass this obstacle.

The first one is Isaiah 55:8__

The second one is

Proverbs 3:4,5,6___

Lord thank you for Grace, for your loving kindness and Mercy for forgiveness when I error. Amen.

Jaz,

Do not worry, universalism is not bad as it sounds. 'Our Father which art in heaven' is still the same whether you are calling on God from Abilene or from Zanzibar. Christ is still the same, the Way. His blood cleanseth us from all sins if you have just heard the word of God for the first time. A day is appointed for Christ to gather His saints, and He has promised His disciples a kingdom. ( Luke 22:29) His kingdom is everlasting to everlasting.

So let not the know-nothings distract you, from whichever corner they may throw, from the race that you run today. Quit ye like men, as the word of God tells us. Amen

Here's the message for today, and for days ahead, day by day, and henceforward, until the END of all things, and END this world as a whole.

Genesis 19:13 reveals the voice sounded in Sodom: We will destroy this place,... but now, even now, from now on, the same voice will destroy the current world of Devil as a whole, as was prophesied, since ancient time. The same Word, the Word of GOD, GOD Himself, must sound, self-executing it. Heavens and earth shall PASS AWAY, but my Words shall not pass away, says my Lord, so

Get ready

There shall be wrath against the wicked- Revelation 11:18, only Judgment and Justice will support you. Righteousness and Judgment are the foundation of GOD's Throne.

Get ready

I don't understand universalism so I can't comment on it , sorry , no actually I'm not sorry .

Best to keep my mouth shut about things that I know nothing about . At least I try to do that , most of the time , wink .

Dear Brother , nothing quite so controversial , I keep away from those subjects if I can .

Just minor inconsistencies in the narrative of the life of David . Sometimes we can forget just what a man of war he was , and therefore a cunning and manipulative man as all good warriors are .

Examples coming soon , have to go to work today so bare with me please .

A correction:

The entirepost is edited for clarity as follows:

"And, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me." (v.9)

The Spirit uses 'behold' in order to connect the passage either to the Word or to the word made flesh. A classic example is that of Prophet Isaiah announcing the virgin birth of Jesus. "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."(Is.7:14). Jesus Christ is set down indeed as a sign and in the everlasting covenant we read the signs inserted before introducing two great lights. " And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs," (1:14). Joseph's dream is very much built out of symbols supplied by God. . Concerning Moses we have the words of God, " And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream."(Nu.11:8).

God sets Joseph after the likeness of his Son. From his life we shall accordingly see many parallels with that of Jesus Christ.

His brethren had no clue as to the role his least favoured sibling would play in their later lives. They were know nothings because their envy blinded them.

Ge.37:9-11 "Joseph's dream"

"And, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me." (v.9)

The Spirit uses 'behold' in order to connect the passage either to the Word or to the word made flesh. A classic example is that of Prophet Isaiah announcing the virgin birth of Jesus. "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."(Is.7:14). Jesus Christ is set down indeed as a sign and in the everlasting covenant we read the signs inserted before introducing two great lights. " And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs," (1:14). Joseph's dream is very much built out of symbols supplied by God. . Concerning Moses we have the words of God, " And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream."(Nu.11:8).

God sets Joseph after the likeness of his Son. From his life we shall accordingly see many parallels with that of Jesus Christ.

His brethren had no clue as to the role his least favoured sibling would play in their later lives. They were know nothings because their envy blinded them. When we read the kind of debate goes on it is sure the Bible is a closed book to them. Instead of opening their ear of faith they let them taught by false shepherds and they mouth the same. God has given the indwelling Spirit to follow his Will and his Son so they may understand the spiritual instruction. Faith with works does apply where fools are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

11 And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.

1John 2:2 reads, And he is the propitiation for our sins:

The Greek word just means satisfaction. Jesus meets all the requirements for our sins. But also, HELASMON is the Greek word, and it is the word for mercy seat in the Old Testament in the tabernacle area.

Once a year at the Day of Atonement, the priest would go in the holy of holies and sprinkle the mercy seat with the sacrifice that has been made for the sins of the people.

So Jesus presents Himself before the Father, not only His righteousness, but His sacrifice for our sins. And not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

And so the argument and debate goes on about "Did Jesus die for the sins of the whole world, or just for a few, that is, the ones that He has chosen?"

Well, the bible tells us that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, everybody's sins. But its application and its effectiveness is only for those who receive Him.

When the whole world stands before Christ, the only thing they will answer for is how they responded to Christ. That's it! And people will die in their sins because they have rejected Christ.

With that as the base and foundation of moving on, showing God's provision if we confess our sins, it's almost as if John was saying "Now as we go through this list, and you realize that you're not saved, just remember we've got a provision for your sins, so take advantage of it."

Hello S, Spencer,

I understand Limited Atonement as the view that the death and sacrifice of Jesus was done only for those elected to salvation, and so, Jesus did not take on the sins of the whole of humanity. This may not be exactly what calvinists such as David view it.

Wow Jaz!

You are "looking forward" to lots of (outraged responses?,)

Trinity?

Existence of Hell?

universalism?

Just curious.

Hi Gigi.

You stated; you based your thoughts on the how God saves infants and children on what Jesus said about infants and children in the Gospels. He is clear that we are to have childlike faith as those children who we brought to Him did. So, He is saying that infants and children can have true faith and be saved by Him.

I believe you are referring to Matthew 18:2-4 and Mark 10:14-15.

If I may, let me offer my understanding on Matthew 18:3 if this is the verse you are referring to.

This verse isn't exhorting us to have "childlike" faith in Matthew 18:1-3

Jesus says that we must "become as little children"

In verse one the disciples' question, "Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

Here is Jesus response in verses 2-4.

And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and BECOME AS LITTLE CHILDREN, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

The disciples focus is on what constitutes "greatness" in heaven.

Jesus let's them know what constitutes greatness is Humility.

Those who willingly take the lowest position are the greatest in heaven's eyes.

A young child is destitute of ambition, pride, and haughtiness..

There's an similar verse in Mark 10:14-15

"But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

God bless.

Jaz

If all the scribes of God's word were under the power of the Holy Spirit to pen those words, then they can not be inconsistencies.

So we would have to conclude that Satan is a vessel of God, just as we are.

I also know other places that seem to have inconsistencies, but are they? or maybe we are not applying them correctly.

Looking forward to that discussion.

Hi Gigi and thanks for responding.

I'm sorry but I'm a bit confused

May I ask, How do you define or describe Limited Atonement?

Hello everyone:

I have done some discussions here about topics such as once saved/always saved, sinning/christian, infilling of the Holy Ghost, modern versions of the bible compared to the KJB and is the KJB truly written by God. Anyway, for a time I have decided to take my old hymn book with so many beautiful songs in it and paraphrase (these are not copy written anymore) them because the lyrics display some beautiful aspects and thoughts of God. My paraphrasing is a very flimsy attempt, however, compared to the actual songs, so please excuse my clumsiness. If anyone would like to discuss the topics I've listed above, or any topic, Just let me know; I love discussions.



THE LOVE OF GOD by F. M. Lehman

If all the oceans on earth where made of ink and all the sky was a huge piece of paper and every star was a pen and every person wrote in the same language: "The Love Of God" on on this paper, it would drain all the oceans dry but still this would not even begin to contain the great love of God. It goes beyond the farthest star. Because of this Great love, He gave his son to win the guilty, to pardon and reconcile us to God.

THE CHORUS:

"Oh love of God, how rich and pure, how measureless and strong! It shall for evermore endure the saints and angles song."

In this chorus the word "endure" is used here to mean "to continue on in existence." as in forever.

The history of the actually writing of this whole song by Mr. Lehman is a miracle of God. You can read the story if you do a search of hymn search: the love of God" God Bless ")

Dear Shantel , there are one or two other inconsistencies in the accounts of the lives of David and his peers . So maybe the verses you quote here are just that . Written by two different scribes with slightly different attitudes towards David . If you can wait a day or two I will compile them and message you them , I would be interested to hear what you and anyone else thinks . As we all agree that the Bible is the Word of God , how do we feel when it seems to contradict itself ? I shall post some examples soon , looking forward to lots of outraged responses , I have a glint in my eye when I say that .

WHAT IS SALVATION?

Salvation is the gift of IMMORTAL life.

No one is saved until thy depart this body of dust.

What is the kingdom of God?

The kingdom of God is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:53 ..... this mortal shall put on IMMORTALITY .......

1 Timothy 6:16 ..... Christ ONLY hath IMMORTALITY .......

1 Corinthians 15:54 ..... DEATH is swallowed up in VICTORY .....

John 14:6 ..... I am the (only) LIFE .....

How can YOU have free will, unless you believe you DID NOT died on the cross of Christ, and if you weren't crucified with Christ, then you were not resurrected with Christ, yet you proclaim to BE SAVED.

God Bless You

Good morning Richard,

Thanks for your remarks on this topic.

I know that God saves us into a right, holy, blessed relationship with Him and not to make us robots for Him to direct. He regenerates us so we can be spiritually alive to and in Him so we can take hold of the salvation provided us in Christ.

In all my years of walking with God I have never viewed the way God has redeemed me as making me a robot without any freedom of will. In fact, being regenerated to faith in the Gospel and our Lord has freed my will from the bondage of sin that kept me unable to respond to a call to salvation. But because of God's grace to me as a young as I was, my will was freed so I could respond to His call to salvation and walk in it all my life. How blessed it is to have such a lifelong walk with the true God! I wish this was so for every person, but God does what He pleases and knows the best time to bring someone to be born from above and to faith and to the fellowship of God and the body of believers.

We certainly can be diligent in prayer for those God puts on our hearts to ask for His mercy and grace to come upon them to save them. There is a purpose for God asking us to pray for others, evangelize others, and stand in the gap for others that we may not really know this side of heaven. But God doesn't need any of these things to bring someone to faith. Look at Saul! He was saved when Jesus appeared to him, changed in that moment when Jesus spoke to him. But God's will for us to do these things and His will for those we lift up to Him and share the Gospel with is perfect,, so we continue in obedience and trust that God will come to bring salvation to all of whom we ask of Him.

S. Spencer,

I am thankful for your fellowship and love.

What I am in agreement with David is the monergistic view that regeneration is solely a work of God and He provides for us grace that causes those He elected to come to belief and repentance. Also believe that God sovereignly chose whom to be saved by election. I don't know how He used His foreknowledge to predestine the elect. But I do not believe in limited atonement.

Thanks you for you input. This subject of salvation and how it comes about is important for believers to speak about as you have often said. I look forward to hearing from you later.

Ge.35:20 "Rachel's grave"

"And Jacob set a pillar upon her grave: that is the pillar of Rachel's grave unto this day."

God had foreseen Jacob despite of his shabby deceitfulness.God allowed him a long leash so he prospered for a time. He brazenly snatched blessing intended for Esau. As an outdoor type Esau could please his father every time he returned from hunting. Isaac almost blind smell, was fooled when he assumed his brothers garb, "and he smelled the smell of his raiment, and blessed him, and said, See, the smell of my son is as the smell of a field which the Lord hath blessed." Did it come true when Jacob in the Laban's house toiled for more than 20 years braving the cold and heat of the noon day? He himself would recall, "Thus I was; in the day the drought consumed me, and the frost by night; and my sleep departed from mine eyes." He was in bondage to his past folly. God would, nevertheless, make him understand some precious lessons. God was his Father and Laban his chastening rod. "If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?"(He.12:7). At the same time He had chose Rachel to make him survive there. "And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her." This exquisite line recalls Christ's love his bride and the Spirit meant it so. (29:20) The key verse recalls this with the expression, "unto this day"

God uses Jacob having both faith and works when he could 'after the likeness' of the Son direct the whole life to possess that single goal. "For the love of Christ constraineth us." (2 Co.5:14)

GOD established the OT,first celestial environment or first heaven that lasted around 1500 years,from Moses until JESUS.

GOD established the NT,second heavenly environment or second heaven( Ephesians 1:3-8),it has lasted 2000 years as is written: Heb. 1:1-3:

1GOD,who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Has in these last days(last two millenniums)spoken unto us by His Son,whom he has appointed heir of all things,by whom also He made the worlds;

3Who being the brightness of His glory,the EXPRESS IMAGE of His Person and upholding all things by the Word of His power,when He had by himself purged our sins,sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

JESUS said to the Jews: John 2:19-21: 9-->Destroy this temple,and in three days I will raise it up.21But he spake of the temple of His body.(So,up from the grave the body of JESUS arose in the 3rd day,a day of 24 hours,but spiritually the Church is the body of Christ( Colossians 1:24),and now,after two Days,two millenniums,as was prophesied by Hosea 6:2-3,the body of Christ, the true Church of the Lord( Ephesians 1:3-8),will rise up or caught up and put down all rule and all authority and power,JESUS must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet,and the last ENEMY that shall be destroyed is death, having He put all things under His feet. 1Corinthians 15:24-27.

The Kingdom of GOD will be established by the Power of the Word of GOD- Revelation 11:15-18.The Word is GOD,GOD Himself,self-executing.Satan will be cast down into the bottomless pit that he should deceive the nations no more,till the thousand years should be fulfilled.Re.20:2-3

2Pe.3:7-8

7But the heavens(the heavenly environment of the OT and NT which were established by GOD here( Ephesians 1:3-8),and the earth(the current Israel-the clay,the dry land),which are now,by the same Word are kept in store,reserved unto FIRE against this Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men(this Day arrived-the Lord's Day)

Giannis

You gave Richard a good explanation of an angel's calling.

Do you not think that calling of those messengers continues on in the next age and in the ages to come.

John 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.

Does not Christ, the Son of Man, indwell us.

Are we not a beneficiary of these messengers, and those flames of fire, ascending and descending on Christ?

Is not the parable of the workers in the vineyard symbolizing this, the apostles have gone into the vineyard at an earlier hour of the day that we will, but were not all given the same wage, no matter what time of the day we enter in.

The apostles were commissioned to go into all the world and preach the gospel, that was not possible until they were harvested for this age, and given the office of a ministering spirit.

Just food for thought.

God Bless You

Hi Gigi.

I don't mean to be adverse towards you, I love you.

You caught me by surprise in the way you originally explained your view.

You agreed with David on this topic but his beliefs lines up with limited Atonement.

He doesn't believe God uses his sovereignty to choose his elect.

The key here is does God make a decision without knowing?

And we may differ on defining regeneration and when and how that takes place.

We are not far apart in the way you explained yourself here but there is elements of both views in your statement.

Gigi I will talk with you later and explain myself as time permits.

God bless you.

Hello Richard

Angel in anc grk means messenger, one who brings news. This is the initial meaning of it in the ancient times. Of course nowadays in all languages it ended up meaning only those spiritual creatures.

So angels of God are those spiritual creatures that God uses to bring news/messages to people, e.g. Gabriel. But it is not their only service. In general they are the servants of God.

In a church, any church, who is that particular person who brings to the congregation God's news, messages? Isn't it the pastor who, if he is filled with the Spirit, receives words from the Spirit and brings them to the congregation when teaching/preaching?. So figuratively he is the angel of God for his church. So with this meaning it is used in Rev. On top of that if we assume that they are real angels then we must explain why God gives warnings to them for example for not being neither hot nor cold, of left their first love etc. I think it is obvious that God gives warnings to the pastors of those churches for not doing their job properly or praises some for staying in the right path.

Jesus calles John the Baptist as His angel. Mark 1:2, "As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger(in grk angel) before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee." Although the Engl translation righty translates the grk as messenger, in grk the text says "angel". John was Jesus' angel. Because he walked before Him bringing to people the message about Jesus, the Messiah.